Noor: Fidji Simo is the CEO and chair of Instacart. She's a consumer technology industry veteran, having spent more than 15 years leading the operations strategy and product development for them of the world's leading businesses. Before Instacart, Simo was the vice president and head of Facebook app Simo.

Founded the Meador Institute and Multidisciplinary medical Clinic and research Foundation dedicated to the care and cure of complex chronic conditions and serves as president of the Meador Foundation. She also serves as a member of the Board of Directors at OpenAI and Shopify. Simo holds a master's of management from HEC Paris, and spent the last year of her master's program at UCLA Anderson School of Business.

She grew up in the south of France and now lives in California with her husband and daughter. Thanks so much for joining us. What a badass.

Fidji: Thank you for having me know. Awesome to talk to you.

Noor: Yeah, thanks for being here. So you grew up in the south of France and were the first member of your family to graduate from high school.

Can you tell us a little bit about that story from, of how you got from, you know, small, small town in France to CEO of a public company?

Fidji: Well, it wasn't an entirely straight line. I'll tell you. I grew up in a family of fishermen. So for multiple generations, all the men in my family are, uh, fishermen. My grandma was, and so I wasn't totally.

Seem to end up in tech, let's say that. Uh, but my parents really instilled in me this idea that if you work hard, anything is possible. And, and I think that's the biggest gift they could have given me. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do growing up, but I knew that I wanted to discover things that I hadn't been.

Necessarily exposed to in my childhood and have a big impact on the world. And I thought that, you know, going into business school would give me kind of this broad view. And so that's why I, I went and studied there. And then I'll be honest, I had watched way too many TV shows that happened in the US and I, I developed my American dream from watching that and the US with land of opportunities.

And I hadn't traveled much, obviously, in my childhood with my dad, uh, being a fisherman and all. Uh, but I decided that, you know, I. Wanted to explore the world and the US really felt like, you know, land where anything could happen. And so that's why I decided to move to the us, decided to move into tech because I wanted to be in a place where things would move a lot faster and things, uh, would expose me to, to, you know, a wide range of.

Problems that I could tackle for the world. And so, uh, that's how I landed it. Uh, and then, you know, one thing led to another, I would say, and, uh, started at tbe, then spent 10 years at Facebook, and that's really what my career took off. And then been CEO of Instacart since 21.

Noor: Yeah. That's amazing. So, um, really, that seems like of an idea to come to the US was just from media or like how did you even start to get that idea to, you know, run off so far away from home?

Fidji: I mean, honestly, yes. Like, I think people would want me to make up a much more like, you know. Serious story, but the reality I think, media, um, really influences people. And I, I worked, uh, for a, a big part of my Facebook career. I was running the, the team in charge of entertainment at Facebook. And the reason I care so much about it is because I do think that for people who do not like, get to travel, do not have access to, you know, different kinds of people, media is a way in which you get.

Both to a lot of different things in the world. And I will tell you, like I didn't even know, uh, what, where I wanted to study and when I went to see the, you know, counselor at school that was in charge of helping you do that. And I told him like, you know, I think I wanna study business. He told me, yeah, you can like work at Sea Hall in North Small Village.

And that was kind of like the path that he had in mind. Said, one day I turned on the TV and there was this, uh, business show on TV that everyone used to watch in France, and it was an entire documentary on HCC Paris, the business call I ended up going to, and I think I was nine at the time, and I was like, oh my God, this looks like the type of person I want to be.

And um, I think that had a huge influence on my life, both for the path I took and the places I decided to live in.

Noor: Oh my gosh, that's so charming. Um, it really makes you look at nine year olds differently that they're deciding who they wanna be at that age, right? Because that's when, when you, the spark, um, got lit.

Fidji: Yeah. I think, I think you can get influenced by a lot of things to, to go all the way into the cliche. I will tell you, like the first time I came to the US I literally had the soundtrack of the OC playing in my, uh. No, California, here we come. Like, yeah, I was a total cliche.

Noor: That's amazing. I love that. So you had this really, really big important role at, um, Facebook.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Instacart. But how did they convince you to join? Um, you know, it's, it was such a, you know, hard thing to tear you away from, and it's also just like a really difficult and unique challenge to take the reins as CEO from the, from the founder of the company. So,

Fidji: yeah. How do they, how do they make the sale?

So, you know, I mean, I had no intention of leaving Meta at the time. Well, Facebook and myself have trouble calling Meta, but, um, you know, I was running the Facebook app. It was 6,000 people. It was the job of a lifetime. I felt like, you know, this was a huge privilege, uh, for Mark have put me in charge of, you know, like the main app and, and.

I loved my job. Uh, but there were two things that were, uh, you know, a big factor and I was actually on the board of Instacart before I became TEO, so I got to know the business. One is I really fell in love with the mission. I mean, the mission of the company is, you know, help people get access to the foods they love and more time spend spending together and, you know.

Kind of felt like full circle that I come from a family that like feed those family as a job. And uh, and I think there's something really ancestral about food and feeding people that really resonated with me. And then the second reason is that it's very different to run your own show versus work for someone else.

And I learned. So much from working for Mark for 10 years about, you know, what it's like to run a company, what it's like to have a hundred year vision. Uh, but because I'm such a creative soul, I always had this question of like, what could I create on my own? Like if I was at the home and I wasn't executing on someone's vision, but really executing on my own.

What could I create? And I didn't wanna end up having a regret in my life of never seeing what I could do on my own. And so that was part that, that was a big motivation for, uh, you know, also taking a, the job even though it was incredibly challenging and, uh, and, you know, not an easy situation to walk into.

But, um, I really felt like that was my calling.

Noor: So what were some of the lessons you feel like you learned from, from Mark?

Fidji: Oh, so many. Um, I think the first one is like always thinking about the very, very long run, like that hundred year vision, and at the same time obsessing about execution today, because you can never get to the long term vision if you don't have perfect execution today.

But vice versa, if you only focus on execution without that long term vision, you are kind of, you know. Confusing motion for progress and um, and that's something you really excel at. So that, that's, I would say the, the most important thing I learned. I also, um, think that there easy boldness to how you approaches.

Like building a vision for the company. That gave me a lot of permission. Uh, I think a lot of people who don't work for these, like, you know, big visionary founders don't have the opportunity, nor nor the permission to think really big. And in fact, with a lot of my exec, the thing I do now is like, really encourage them to take the big swings to take the rest.

And like my job is to really be there. For them to, to stretch them. And Marco always did that. He put me in charge of things that, you know, at the time I felt I was like, you know, being way over my head and time after time I figured it out and that's what accelerated my career. Uh, but I think he, he really gave me permission to do things that were risky, that weren't obvious.

And, uh, that's something that you end up carrying with you for the rest of your career.

Noor: Yeah. That's awesome. Um, yeah, it just seems like ex executive hiring, I think everyone talks about as like notoriously hard and like the CEO role is like impossible to fill. Um, do you feel like there was a, um, there was scheming in the background to get you onto the board so that eventually you, you might be convinced to join the company?

Or, or what do you think, um, was, was happening behind the scenes to, to get you in the seat?

Fidji: I, I don't think that was the plan. I think, um, but I think as a, the founder of the company kind of, um, wanted to see the company like get to a bigger scale and wanted to, you know, place his maybe in the hands of someone who had a very, very ambitious vision, um, and how they founder like mentality.

And I think sometimes, um, the challenge when you go to, you know. Establish execs that you get a lot of the kind of lessons that we come from scale and like really good management, but you don't get the like, variable thinking. And um, and I think, you know, I, again, I credit Mark a lot for teaching me how to do both, like how to execute very well, but also have the board thinking.

And so, um, I, I think that's ultimately what convinced the board and, and prove that the company would be in good hands if, uh, ended up being CEO.

Noor: Yeah, I just think that, you know, everyone excellent. Like you already has an amazing role, so it's so hard to tear them away, uh, you know, to do something new. So, you know, testament to the, to the whole team, to, to getting you enticed about it.

Um, so yeah. What excites you the most about the business?

Fidji: Oh, so many things. I mean, so I would say at the high level, the mission is incredibly exciting, um, because it is all about really helping people get life done. And when you think about kind of the most precious thing we have is our time and I. If I can give time back to people by allowing them to, you know, be fed in a much more convenient way.

And that also creating flexible learning opportunities for our shoppers. I think this is a great example of really one of the values we have at in Scotts called Grow the Pie, where it's. It's one of the examples where everyone win, and I love businesses where the entire ecosystem is lifted up. Um, I also think that over the long run, when you are at the intersection of the relationships that people have with the food they eat, there's a lot that you can do with that.

There's, you know, obviously, um, health aspect where you can help them achieve their health goals and really shift from, you know, uh, the, the system we have right now where. $1 trillion of healthcare spend going towards diet related diseases, which is crazy, and that's something we could address in the future.

And then, uh, on top of that, you have a role to play as well in the entire food supply chain where Instacart kind of. Delivers from retailers, but also like in something that's less known about us. We power technologies for retailers on their own and operated properties inside their store. And all of that gives us the right to really be the technology platform for the food industry over time, which I think would be fantastic because.

It's still a supply chain that's really under optimized, really worth wasteful, and there's so much we can do with technology and AI to take that supply chain and really modernize it so that it can serve everyone, every actor on the supply chain better, all the way down to the consumer.

Noor: Yeah, I use it, um, probably three or four times a week, and I can't imagine my life without it.

Fidji: Um, yeah, I, you know, I hear the bad stories. Like the other days I was, uh, a mom who told me that, um, she's in the army and she got deployed abroad and Instacart was a way to, um, show a kids that she's thinking of them abroad, uh, because she would schedule like Instacart deliveries of their favorite. Think every week.

Uh, and that would be a way for, you know, them to realize that mom is still like, you know, thinking about them every day. And I, it's minor. Something like that about other, you know, people talking about like how it has helped their grandparents were not as mobile as they used to be. And like could. Save that energy for the things they really wanted to do instead of going to the grocery store.

So there's a million stories like that where we help people, um, in really just get, get life done in essential situation, and it's insanely rewarding.

Noor: Yeah. So what do you think is the biggest threat and what about the biggest opportunity?

Fidji: Ooh, great question. Um, I'll start with opportunity. I think the biggest opportunities, um, we are really in the midst of a massive digital transformation and, um, the grocery industry are massively underrated on online, uh, out of all the categories of commerce.

Grocery is the largest one. We're talking 1.1 trillion, and it's still only 13% penetrated online compared to, you know, 25, 30% for every other category of commerce. And so there is this massive opportunity for, uh, people to adopt online grocery and realize the benefits. And then for us, there's also a massive opportunity to look and and partner with grocers and really be the technology ally across their entire business.

Not just online, but also in store. We recently rolled out a smart up where you can go into the store and using AI and computer vision, you just. Drop items into your car, it automatically recognizes the items. You have a running total on your screen. We give you recommendations and like basically the in-store experience becomes a lot more sophisticated, personalized, gamified, and fun.

And that's much opportunity to like tackle The kind of 87% of the markets are still offline. So for us that's really exciting because we could be not just the online player, but really. The technology. He,

Noor: he is not online. Wow. I think I in the bubble. That's crazy. That's, yeah, exactly. And,

Fidji: and it's still very endated.

And so when you ask also what is the biggest threat, the biggest threat is not necessarily, you know, a competitor or something like that. The biggest threat is actually. Us not being able to find the ways to accelerate online adoption of technology adoption across that industry in general. To me, the biggest threat is inertia and having our grocers not realize that, you know, Amazon is making huge investments in this space and you know, like, and.

Our job is to really make sure that our grocers have all the technologies that they need to compete with the giants. Uh, and that requires, you know, grocers embracing that. And so, to me, really the biggest threat is inertia and having, you know, other. Um, other tech companies kind of get there before the incumbents get there.

And I believe that these, you know, the incumbents have been there for sometimes like, you know, many decades, sometimes hundreds of years, like generational companies, really. Um, and I want to make sure that, uh, these companies continue to thrive because they are so important for their communities and we wanna give them the tools so that they can continue to compete and thrive.

Noor: Yeah. So what worked in terms of getting things done and just culturally at Facebook, but not at Instacart and, and vice versa?

Fidji: Such a great question. So, you know, one thing that was striking is I was at Facebook for 10 years and therefore I really took culture kind of for granted. We had an incredible culture.

We had people who were. Absolute like missionaries, like very mission driven. Um, and when you've lived that for 10 years, you, you assume that's, you know, the case everywhere. And I would say when I arrived at Instacart, there was a lot of like retraining to do on, um, having a long term vision, not being just a one quick pony with online, uh, delivery.

And it, it was interesting because a lot of the things that were. Successful for, um, getting the company Instacart from, uh, zero to one weren't gonna work for getting the companies from one to a hundred. And so really making sure that people understood that it's not that the prior playbook was wrong, it was absolutely right for the time, but we needed to update our playbook because when you are a company at.

30 billion plus dollar plus of gross transaction volume. Even just growing 10%, he's like, you have to find 3 billion to go get. And that's very different than, you know, when you are like looking for 300 million and growing a hundred percent. And so, uh, I had to really explain, you know. Like, how do you diversify without losing focus?

How do we do things that help our growth but really allow us, um, to strengthen our core competitive advantage? Um, what is a distraction versus what is like strategic diversification? And I think now that, you know, all of these things are working, it's much easier. But in the early days it was a very, very big departure.

Um, and it was in the middle of. People operating a little bit out of scarcity because you have to understand, like when I joined in 21, um, we were just exiting the pandemic. We, Instacart had run five x uh, therefore the numbers went down. Like gross transaction volume was actually contracting. We were the post-structural for an unprofitable company.

Uh, we had promised employees an IPO that was, that we were absolutely not ready for. And so there was a, a lot of factors where, you know, employees were looking at that and being like, oh, IP o's not coming anytime soon. Valuations are declining. Um, the numbers are pretty like difficult. We need to become comfortable and we've never had that pressure.

So you have to like, really like. Paint the vision for the future so that they would come along on the journey with you. Um, and I think now that, you know, we managed to go public, like, uh, we had a lot of success in the public markets. We managed to grow other businesses. Now people are like, oh, now we get it.

Uh, but, but it takes a while to, to change, you know, the culture of, of a place like that. Of course.

Noor: So what is it the mechanics, like, you know, at the exec level, um, like what actually happens when you're taking a company public? I think, you know, the, the meme, um, out there in the world is just like, you know, they start charging for coffee and taking away like, you know, free drinks and desserts and things like that, and no one else really knows it's happening behind the scenes.

Fidji: Oh, well, I, I certainly would never wanna be the one dealing away people's deserve. I, I think, you know, a lot of people and a lot of CEOs complain about the being a public company process and listen, like I, I'm not gonna say that it's a complete work in the park just to be very clear, but I think going public forces a rigor on companies that makes them better.

And so, while. It is sometimes like, you know, a real, uh, a real heavy process. I actually think that you end up being better off for it. Uh, and so, you know, for example, like we did a lot of, um, you know, cost tightening, but we did it very thoughtfully in the right places, and it did make us a better company because I believe that when you operate efficiently.

Everyone is better off. Everyone feels like they're having a real impact. Everyone feels like, um, you know, the work that they do matters. And so even having, um, you know, the forcing function, uh, was actually very productive for the company. Uh, now, you know, if you assess a new batch, like we need to have a very solid business case.

We like, it forces the right discussions instead of, oh, you know, the, the glory days of tech. Like 21 where it was, you know, oh, like everyone has a project and like, let's hire 20 more engineers to try this out. Uh, and the big companies, that was quite a bit effective around that. And I think now these companies are better run because there was a forcing function to, to get efficient.

And so for me, I actually really appreciate that. I'll, I'll say, you know, there were a lot of things that were hard about Instacart. This one wasn't as hard because it was a company that was already sweating the sense, like, I remember my first meeting we were, um, like the team was celebrating, having shaved off.

1 cents per delivery because it turns out when you make, you know, we have, we have made more than a billion orders to date. So when you make a billion orders, like it turns out the stents matter. And, and I would tell you at Facebook, I don't think I ever mentioned the word stent, but uh, but um, I would say it created a lot of, um, because it's a business.

Uh, of logistics is so, uh, requires so much rigor. I think we already had that in our DNA and it was just a matter of unleashing it across the company so that people, uh, would help us really find the areas where we could be more efficient.

Noor: Yeah, that's very thoughtful and, um, polite response to what I think most people describe as just like a very grueling, grueling process.

Obviously Instacart a is a really, um, exciting company, but you're also on the boards of Shopify and OpenAI. Um, what is it like being on those boards? It must be such, um, interesting decisions, interesting conversations, like Yeah, what, what is it like?

Fidji: It's certainly very interesting. I, I think, um, you know, being on both sides, meaning like managing a board and then also being on the board, um, gives you a lot of perspective.

And so I always try, um, to, you know, be the board member. I would wanna my on board and, uh, and add value in the place that I can, but also really respect the fact that like. You know, the board doesn't run the company. It's management. Who does that? And so I think on, on your point on like the interesting decision, it's really about like, how do you provide great governance and um, really help the management team see around corners, um, avoid the blind spots.

And, um, at the same time, uh, really challenge of thinking, you know, when it comes to strategic decision to make sure that they have thought about everything. Um, and, and I think that's a very, you know. Interesting role to play, uh, that I, I certainly enjoy and, and I learned a lot, you know, like being on a board is also a huge privilege in terms of learning.

So there's been so many things that Shopify has done, for example, in terms of how they run their organization that is incredibly novel and interesting, um, that I, you know, definitely, um, using, you know, how I run Instacart as well, so I believe, um. I, I really believe in, um, the need for people, especially leaders, to have like a, a broad range of interest and a broad range of, um, perspectives around them.

And, uh, because I believe that it enriches everything that you do if you're not thinking about just one thing all the time. And that has certainly been the case, uh, with these two boards where it has made me a lot better at my job, and my job makes me a lot better at being a board member.

Noor: Yeah. That's awesome.

So, uh, I guess what are some of the differences in terms of how you run your board and, um, you know, how, how Shopify and OpenAI boards are run and kind of what are the, what are some of those learnings in terms of, um, hey, you really liked this, or you, you know, you, you, uh, you decided to institute it, um, on your board and, and vice versa, things you didn't like and you're like, Hey, I'm gonna run things differently here.

It's

Fidji: all different based on the different stages of the company, right? And so, um, you know, in the case of Shopify, it is an incredibly mature, well run company, has been public for, you know, uh, many, many years. Uh, very well machine. And so I would say it, it's ran more like a very traditional goal. When you look at OpenAI, it's a much newer company with a.

Ton of things happening every day and a ton of things to figure out on the government side. And so that tends to be more involved board where, um, you know, a lot of things happen in between board meetings, in the communities, in, you know, talking to management. Um, and so that's, that's just a reflection of like the different stages, uh, that the companies are at and the, the different, um, you know, products that they have and all of that.

So, um. And that's what makes it interesting. I think, you know, uh, as for my board, the thing I, I always say is that you can only get, uh, out of your board members the investment that you yourself put in. Meaning if you don't give them enough context about the challenges that you're facing. You are not gonna get the values that you could get out of them, you're not gonna get the best advice, you're not gonna get all of these things.

So what I obsess over as CEO and chairwoman of the board is really how do I give them enough of a view of the business without going too much into details, because that's not their job, but enough of a view of the business that they can be hopeful with our unique expertise, um, and really trying to unlock.

Each member of the board's, uh, contribution and that might look very different. Board member by board member. I have some board members where, you know, most of what we discuss is through WhatsApp and I'm just like, oh, like, you know, I have this one question. Can you please tell me more about like this one topic?

Meanwhile, like, you know, I have other board members where a lot of that is really done at the board meeting, and so it's really, it really depends on how they wanna engage and I just make myself available to. We receive their advice and their council in, in any way that work for them.

Noor: How much of a time commitment does it end up being for you to be on these boards and that you're expecting from your board members?

Fidji: Again, it totally depends on kind of like the stage of maturity, I think on, for my board, um, it's not that much time commitment because again, like we are, we have a process, we have kind of, you know, a set of things that are fairly recurring every quarter. Same thing for Shopify. I think OpenAI is just a much more involved board in general because of, you know, the, the impact it's having and the fact that there's just.

A lot going on with the company across a variety of topics that do impact governance. Uh, and so that tends to be a much more involved role.

Noor: Yeah. So you've described yourself as an outsider in Silicon Valley, um, due to your French background. How do you think that the way that you grew up shapes your work at Instacart?

And what do you think that Americans can learn from French culture?

Fidji: That's a, that's a great question. Um. You know, I don't know if I would describe myself as an outsider. I think, I think I have a, I, I probably have a different perspective because I have a different background. But the thing I do love about tech that there are a lot of different, uh, backgrounds that people bring to the table.

Um, I think there are a couple things. I think it's a French culture. Really values craft. I mean, you know, also luxury, big luxury companies come from there. And um, and I think we need more of that in, in tech. I think we need craft, we need beauty. We need to like build products that people. Wanna use, not just because of the utility that these products have, but also because of, um, the emotions that this product trigger.

And I think France is incredible at creating companies that are really based on craft and desire and emotion. And these are worlds that. Uttered as much as I would want in. Um, and, and I think it was a big transition for me to try to make Instacart, which is fundamentally a utility, also a product that wouldn't be just the chores that you have to do every week.

But something that over time you could like, enjoy doing. And I don't think we're, therefore what it's worth. I think that's a lot of work to do. But even as I think about, you know, small cart in store, I don't want it to be just a utilitarian experience where you put products in the cart and you can check out on the cart.

Like, that's great, but how do we make it so that um, you know, as you go grocery shopping, it becomes a real experience. And the biggest compliment I had is that we find. This, we, we interviewed customers in store and we found this couple who says that they go on date night to use our caper cart in the grocery store.

And I'm like, okay, she can have a date night at the grocery store. I've done something. Right. You know, and, and it's a good example where it's not just the utility, it's the fun, it's the entertainment, it's the craft. So I think I really took that from my French background of like. Caring about the emotional aspect of the product as much as the utilitarian aspect.

Um, and then I think, you know, there are some things about French culture that, um, I think are interesting when it comes to food in particular, since you ask about the impact on Instacart, where French people really don't see food as sustenance again, in fact, the utilitarian aspect, I think Americans really think of it very often as like, you know.

Nutrition, whereas in France, like food is like how you show love, it's how you celebrate, it's how you reflect culture. Um, there's a true reverence around lunchtime and dinners and you know, and, and I think bringing back this notion of like. Work with actually a very sacred activities that we're doing by, you know, delivering food to your door.

And food as a testament of care is something that is pervasive in all of our marketing campaigns now, because I really deeply believe that food is like part of caring, uh, not just part of like keeping you alive.

Noor: Yeah, that is sorely needed in American culture. That's very, very true. You've talked publicly about having endometriosis, a very difficult pregnancy and a neuro immune condition.

Um, can you tell us a little bit about those experiences and what motivated you to share something, you know, so, um, so, so difficult and so personal. I.

Fidji: Yeah, you know, it, it was, um, not an obvious choice because as you know, health is very taboo, um, in, especially in the workplace. Uh, I'll say a couple things.

First, I didn't really have a choice, you know, when, when my pregnancy was difficult, I was on bedrest for five months. Uh, and the last months in the hospital I decided to keep working through it. Um, and I was just incredibly lucky to have. Enormous support at Facebook for combining the fact that I had some of these challenges with the fact that I really wanted to remain productive.

I would've totally lost it if I was on leave during that whole time. So I needed the distraction of work and Facebook was incredibly accommodating. And I know that's not true for all companies, uh, and not everybody's as lucky, but I also realized that, um. You know, people, uh, were coming to me during these times and telling me, oh, you know, I have such and such disease or such and such challenge, and I never imagined that I could be like leading a 7,000 person team if I have this challenge.

And I realized like. Because health is so taboo, like people actually don't realize that you can still have the career you want. Like yes, you do need to make accommodations, but you can satisfy to all of these things and because you can't be what you can see, it's really important that the people who are going through these experiences are actually fairly vocal about them because.

To be honest, I have a lot less to lose in like talking about that than someone who's much more junior in their career. And so if I don't speak up, who will? Uh, and so that's, you know, that's why I started becoming more vocal about that. And then when I created my institute, it became even more important to, you know, kind of tell my story and explain why I wanted to solve these problems.

And I would say, you know. There, there are always some people who are gonna find that, um, challenging to, um, you know, someone speak about these issues, but I think the net good is so superior based on, you know, the number of people I've been able to help just by being public with this, um, that it becomes a no brainer and I think it's, it's worth taking the risk.

Noor: Yeah, no, it's, um, super brave of you. I think that you're totally right. There's a huge taboo around it that there shouldn't be, but there definitely is. What was it like for you? I mean, what's kind of your, you know, from your experience, what's sort of your advice to people who are in similar circumstances or, um, you know, even in, in much, um, you know, less, uh, challenging circumstances than, than you have to go through.

Fidji: You know, I think it's really important to be clear on what's important to you because, um, you know, there were people who told me like, oh, like you are clearly, like I was on full bed rest. I couldn't stand alone during my pregnancy. And so were like, you should be completely off. You should take a leave of absence and.

For people that would be helped by a leave of absence. I say, by all means, take a leave of absence. But in my case, um, that wouldn't have been helpful because like I would've been in bed agonizing over whether, you know, my daughter was gonna survive or not. And so I'd much rather be working at the time on, you know, the Facebook Live strategy.

Uh, and uh, and so I would say it's like being clear on. What is gonna help your particular situation?

Noor: I really love, it's really powerful framing of like, you know, you, you didn't want to, you know, not do what you actually wanted to do with your life at risk of like, potentially, um, improving the, the, the situation in terms of your condition.

But how did you deal with, I guess, the opposite side of it? Kinda the trade off that you were mentioning of like, you know, your friend saying that, oh, you're gonna make your situation worse, your health worse by taking on this really high stress job. How did you deal with it in terms of. Again, like having that clarity and that conviction that it was the right decision for you when other people are trying to say, Hey, you're, you're endangering yourself, right?

'cause people are always trying to protect each other. They again, they mean well, but you know, it wasn't the right decision for you.

Fidji: Again, I think it's really about knowing yourself and realizing that people of often project on you their own way of dealing with the situation. And that might be very well intentioned, but that may not be the right thing for you.

So, in my case, you know. Like the job gives me so much joy and like I'm not gonna pretend that the job isn't stressful. Of course it's stressful, but I think like not working and obsessing all day about a chronic condition that has no cure sounds like absolute torture compared to like. You know, being incredibly, like, helpful to millions of families by delivering food.

And so, um, you know, it to me becomes a no brainer. And again, like I didn't go into that, uh, not as wide open. I like really analyze all the details of my condition. I talked to all the doctors, I talked to all the, the researchers and really like, try to understand what would make things better, what would make things worse.

And it turned out, you know, this thing that. Make me better. I have nothing to do with like, working a little less. And you know, in my case I've been able to, you know, balance these things out. Again, not that that wouldn't be anyone, everyone else's choice, but I think we need to respect both sets of choices.

Um, and, and that's, you know, very important.

Noor: What do you think has been the most impactful thing that you've done for your health and stress levels?

Fidji: So I've had a coach for 10 years. Her name is Katie Verson. She's incredible. And basically what she has taught me is how to manage my energy throughout the day and really, um, refuel myself and replenish myself when I feel like I'm deeping in, in energy.

And that can be physical energy, can be creative energy, mental energy. Um. And that has been incredibly helpful because I'm not one to believe that, um, the way to reach out from a stressful job is to like go on an island somewhere for two weeks. Like if you don't know how to manage your stress levels every minute, like, you know, you are not going to like really be doing that well, and so.

For me, like the way it, it has helped me, both with my husband, but also with my job, is really making sure that at every moment, every time I interact with the team, it's a new interaction and I need to be at my best and like, how can I be at my best? It's by taking care of like what my needs are, and so really asking myself throughout the day.

Okay. What do you need? How do you, like, are you deepening in energy? What do you need to like, you know, get back to, to your, um, you know, best levels, um, and not, not take practice. That's almost like exercising. Like you need to exercise that muscle. Um, and that has helped me tremendously, whether it's, you know, minor things like diet minor things like movement, minor things like even, you know.

Creating art is incredibly important for me. So if I go full week and I haven't done a very little, like 10 minutes creative activities that actually impacts my, you know, joy for that week. So things like that, that really helped me maintain my, um, you know, my level of, of not just health but joy because I believe the two are correlated, uh, and bring my, my best possible self to both my work and my family.

Noor: Yeah, that's so true. So you created the Medora Institute to accelerate cures for complex chronic conditions. Can you talk a little bit about how you're attacking the problem and helping these people who no one can give answers to get some answers to hopefully improve their health and quality of life?

I.

Fidji: Yeah, absolutely. So basically it came out of very much my own story of, you know, sort of falling apart from it and bouncing around from specialist to specialist with no one looking at the full picture and no one being able to really diagnose, uh, the full picture because we have. A medical system that is so tailored to specific organs, like the cardiologist with the heart, the neurologist with the brain, that it's really inadequate for a lot of modern conditions, like autoimmune conditions, like neuro immune conditions, which really sit at the intersection of all of these body systems.

It's like nervous system, immune system, uh, hormonal system like, and. Really like the medical system is not set up that way and or even our scientific research is not set up that way. If you look at scientific research, it's usually like very narrow instead of looking at the complexity of all of these systems coming together.

And so what we set out to do with Medora was really find a way. To collect the data to understand these conditions a lot better because when I went and I talked about the companies and pharma companies and told them, Hey, there's like literally tens of millions of people with these conditions and like there doesn't seem to be a great pipeline for cures.

What have we. Company told me, he's like, yes, the market is actually much larger than some of the conditions we're tackling, but we don't understand these complex conditions enough to be sure that we can deploy billions of dollars into developing drug for them. So we need the knowledge base first before we can deploy the dollars.

And so. To us, we were like, okay, we have patients on one side who are desperate to give data to, like anyone, to be able to find a cure for themselves. And we have biotech and pharma companies who are waiting on that data to be able to develop drugs. We need to figure out that, to match that. And so we built a clinic in Salt Lake City to, um, not only treat patients holistically, uh.

Through, you know, all of these different modalities, but also enroll them in research. Um, the clinical side has been insanely complicated because our entire insurance system is really not built again for treating these chronic conditions. Uh, but the ultimate goal is actually partner with a network of clinics so that we can end up really having this knowledge base that make us understand these conditions better.

To give you a basic example, autoimmune conditions tend to impact women way more than men. Depending on the status. It can be 80 20. And when you ask doctors or uh, you know, scientists, why is that? There still isn't an established like, clear answer to that. It's like, oh, women's immune system reacts more strongly than men's.

And it's like, okay, but why you?

I'll tell you, like before getting sick, I thought we knew so much more about biology than we do, and we mostly don't have questions to these very hard answers. And so establishing that that level of data is critical. And then with the advent of ai, we're going to be able to mine that and find much better insights in the future.

But far we really need to understand these conditions a lot better.

Noor: Yeah, that's a really important hole, um, that you're feeling that sort of like integration point. It is kind of sad that, you know, it's sort of the expertise is sort of, you know, stuck in so many different silos. How do you think AI is gonna reshape work and society?

Like what's already, you know, in the works at, at Instacart and what do you think is coming down the pipe pretty soon? And yeah, what do you think? Are you, are you a dor? Are you a glimmer? Are you an optimist? Where, where do you sit?

Fidji: Well, I think I'm, uh, I'm, I'm trying to always be a realist, which in this case is like, I think the upside of this technology is.

Unbound, like it's gonna reshape so many things, including by the way, um, healthcare and, and scientific progress on human health, which I'm incredibly excited about. But in the same way that, you know, any powerful technology can do a lot of. Good. Any powerful technology usually can also do a lot of bad if it's not, uh, you know, controlled.

And so I see our role at OpenAI and as part of the board and as really making sure that we maximize the upside and minimize the, the downsides. And that's gonna be a very, very important role. As for, you know, the impact on entirely, I think we are. Just at the beginning of really integrating AI into productivity, and I think the, the models and the capabilities are going to get, you know, exponentially better, but our ability to absorb them into, uh, applications that actually lead to massive change.

Always takes a little bit longer because, you know, we're humans and we, we have, you know, some limitations to accepting that much change that fast. Uh, and that's why I'm also really interested to look at all of the applications that are being developed because that's fundamentally how a lot of you know, so the developments are gonna end up helping people and an focused on.

Both the internal side, like how do we take all of these models and make our people more productive so that we take all of the tasks they really don't wanna do, and we can automate that and get our people to focus on the much higher value tasks. And then on the external side, on the consumer side.

Really taking this massive leap and figuring out how do we make more products a lot easier to use? And a big part of what we're trying to do is help people mer earlier in the journey than once you've already decided which ingredients to buy. Because if you think at how you are planning your week, you are never thinking like, oh.

I need cilantro and sour cream and pasta. You, you think like, oh, I need to make my lasagna recipe. I need to make my blah, blah, blah. And right now, like, because we have trained people that the commerce happens online is a search box and you have to type a keyword, uh, we are really not matching the way in which people think, which is like natural language.

Help me figure out what's for dinner. And I said, we finally with AI, have an opportunity to really help them. With all of those needs in a much simpler way, where they should really just be able to say, I have a budget of X. I have three kids. One of them is lactose intolerant. We like, you know, Mediterranean food, create a menu for me, and all of that arrives at my door, you know, in another an hour.

Like that's the level of simplicity. We're shooting forward far from that, but I think AI is making that possible.

Noor: What is something that you're dying for someone to build, uh, whether it's an AI agent or for Instacart or for just your, your own personal use.

Fidji: Well, you know, I think I'll go back to the medical side and I think fundamentally the thing that I'm watching very closely is we still haven't seen biotech or pharma companies that have built their entire pipeline based on ai really succeed, like in a very big way.

And I really, um, like. On the edge of my seat waiting for like, what is gonna be the massive, like, successful drug that comes out of like deep AI development and, you know, um, at, at every stage of the process. And I, so that's the space I'm watching very closely. And, and I certainly want, you know, pharma companies to prove the case.

Um, similarly, I, I really look at. How much time it takes, even when you do have a drug to get it through clinical trials and all of that. And you know, as you know, that takes 10 years. And so anyone who can build ways to accelerate that and make sure that any scientific innovation that can impact our health gets to us faster than it does today from, you know, bench to bedside.

I think that's gonna be an area of massive potential innovation and big impact on society.

Noor: Do you think there's gonna be like a single person, billion dollar company where agents are just able to be spun up to like autonomously take on like recruiting and customer support and sales and engineering? Or do you think, um, it's gonna be more of a, uh, co-pilot augment type approach where one person can be the work of 10 or something like that?

Fidji: So, you know, I think at this point it's very much pure speculation, but I do think that think we're still going to need people who really understand how to build things and use AI to amplify that. Like I. You know, if you look at engineering, for example, I believe that it's gonna look completely different in five years than it looks today.

I believe that engineers probably aren't gonna the right code, but they are certainly going to be thinking, okay, we wanna build this exact product and we're here. We need like this type of infrastructure to go from point A to point B. And then like, you know. AI engineers are going to do a lot of the coding work that engineers do today, but I think, um, I think you are still gonna need, um, a lot of, uh, human creation and direction and creativity, uh, to even know what to build because the tools are gonna get a lot better.

But deciding on what to build is still gonna be fundamentally a, a human thing.

Noor: So speaking of deciding what, what to build or what to do, some people say that who you choose to marry is one of the most important career decisions you're ever gonna make. Do you agree or disagree? And what do you think people who are considering getting married, um, should discuss before they tie the knot?

Fidji: Oh wow. We went from like AI to, and career advice to dating advice. I love it. It's like a wide ranging podcast. Um, so listen, I met my husband her day of high school. Uh, we've been together since high school. I can tell you with. Absolute certainty that I would not be where I'm at. If he wasn't for him supporting me and Sherman me on every step of the way, it was, you know, a big leap to even leave my home country and come to the us.

I don't think I would've had the courage to do it on my own if he wasn't by my side. I don't think I would've taken all the leaps I'm taking. We had an entire conversation on health. I don't think I would be able to do everything I'm doing with a chronic condition if my husband wasn't taking care of a lot of things at home, uh, to support me.

So yes, I do agree with your statement. I don't know that I have a lot of dating advice given that, you know, I married the guy I met, I met at 13, but finding someone who truly works for you and sees your magic is what I would say. And I give the same advice on like. How do you pick a company? How do you know that this manager is gonna be the right one for you?

I always say, do they see your magic? And are they, when they do see your magic, are they threatened by it or are they so excited about it that they're shining a light on your magic? Your magic can grow and you know, if you can go with the ladder every time, um, you know, that ends up creating a really, really beautiful life and career.

Um, and I would say the people who are like, um, David, uh, David Brooks has his framework of. See Illuminators versus the diminishers. And I think if you can surround yourself by illuminators and illuminate them in return, uh, and kind of keep the diminishers at bay, it massively, you know, advances your life and career in ways you can't imagine.

So as my dating advice, pick an illuminator.

Noor: That's awesome. Um, as a mom, what's been the most important parenting decision you've made so far?

Fidji: Really? Letting her express her full creativity. And by that I mean realizing deeply that she's not me. And I think a lot, like it's kind of very, uh, full circle to what you were saying on like a lot of people, well intended people give you advice that's not always right for you.

And I think. As a parent, I could have easily fallen into the trap of guiding my daughters towards the things that have worked for me. Um, and because, you know, I've had a pretty good life and career, and so it's tempting to tell her like, Hey, do a little bit more like this. I. Then I realized she's a completely different person for, for me, and she's so magical in, in and of herself.

And so I really had to ask myself, how do I eliminate her magic? How do I make her feel like she can do anything possible? That she can create anything she wants to create by being fully left out? And I think that's by far the most important decision rather than. Trying to shape her to maybe a pre-made image that I would've had of my child, like really, really getting to know her and how special she's, and then nurturing that.

Noor: Yeah. Well, wow. Such an amazing conversation. Fiji, you've had, uh, such a badass career. You're giving back in so many ways. I mean, Instacart is an amazing product. The institute that you're building is helping so many people with autoimmune conditions and, um, it sounds like you, you're even helping people figure out how to raise their, their kids properly.

'cause I feel like what you're just saying about, you know, trying to raise yourself is a huge mistake I think a ton of people make because it's sort of. It's sort of like, I was like not healing their inner child or something. So that's a really wise advice in terms of how to be a good parent. Well thank you so much for joining us.

This is amazing.

Fidji: Great to hear. Thank you so much for having me. And um, so a narrative of what you are doing more so thank, thank you for everything you are doing to give back as well, because that's incredibly important.

Noor: Thanks so much.